#68: Pickup artists, why we’re done with the polarity world, trusting men, differences between men & women, femininity & masculinity in relationship

Episode description:

Jordan & I talk about how the pickup world and how he started his inner work there in his early 20s, how I used to hate men and not trust them and how that changed, how we both got into polarity and how the polarity world is just largely playing out wounding.

We also talk about the idea of always being open to sex, bringing our full selves to relationship and what that looks like, men crying in front of women, what is really missing about traditional masculinity and femininity and why that is appealing to so many…. and more!

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, Stitcher, Overcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Full episode transcript:

Demetra (00:00:08):

Hello. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Demetra Gray Show. I have my husband here. What’s your name?

Jordan (00:00:18):

Jordan Gray. Hello. I’m the husband,

Demetra (00:00:21):

And we wanted to do an episode today to talk a bit about polarity and men and women and the differences and being masculine and feminine and relationship and all these different pieces, uh, themes that people talk a lot about. And we’ve both been into different people’s work around this and different ways that a lot of people view these things. And I think we’ve really found our own way into what feels the truest for us. And so we’re gonna talk about how we relate to it.

Jordan (00:01:06):

A lot to unpack there.

Demetra (00:01:07):

Yeah. Well, um, I think maybe we could start by talking about just how we used to relate to these kinds of things. And maybe you could start because you found it a bit before me. Yeah. And I think these things all kind of, they like all intermingle, like polarity, masculine, feminine women, men, just, I think everyone’s so interested in like, what is that? I guess that’s an actual book. Like Men Are From Mars, women are from, I’ve never read it, but

Jordan (00:01:44):

By John Gray with the same spellings. So people throughout my entire career have been like, oh, he’s probably just John Gray’s son’s. Like, nope. Yep. But he’s definitely, I mean, he was originally like by far the most known relationship coach in the world. Really. For sure. He like that. The book blew

Demetra (00:02:02):

Up. I’ve never read it. I only know like that common saying of like,

Jordan (00:02:07):

Well, he wrote, he wrote the book.

Demetra (00:02:09):

Was he the one who made up the saying,

Jordan (00:02:11):

I have no

Demetra (00:02:11):

Idea, or did the saying already exist? And he just named his book after No idea. Doesn’t matter. Um, so yeah, you kind of got into that before me, so why don’t you talk about that a bit.

Jordan (00:02:25):

Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I started studying relationship everything in my like mid-teens, late teens, pretty feverishly. And I feel like my way into those concepts were like a lot of people who’ve been doing this work for like 15 ish years. My like, first, first weigh in was pickup. So like I studied, you know, the game and all of the surrounding materials and way the Superior Man by David Deida was frequently referenced in that early kind of manosphere of like, it’s a gateway drug, you know, like pick up with just, oh, I can improve anything in my life. And then I feel like there are a lot of people that started there and then did go into polarity teachings and like, yeah, there’s, there’s a lot to unpack in the different tendrils of it, but I read where Superior Man when I was probably 19, I believe for the first time.

(00:03:30):

And so reading Deida’s work, um, very resonated with a part of me that was in a season of like integrating more, you know, depth groundedness, just more of me. And yeah, I think it, well, I know that it served me for a time and then I think fairly quickly just became like a, you know, like the first common pitfall in the spiritual path is like the spiritual spiritualized ego of like, oh, now this is the new way to be. And like this, it just becomes a new mask, a new shield, a new facade. Um, and, uh, a now friend then kind of distant colleague, Jason Gaddis, um, I remember first reading an article by him talking about like data robots or data bots <laugh> about how like there was something too rigid and, you know, black and white about this model and that people that get like lost or stuck in the polarity teachings.

(00:04:37):

And you know, I read that while I was still very much like enamored by data’s work and I was like, I was like, oh, this guy’s, this guy’s probably just like extra heady and a hater and he couldn’t like hack it in being super grounded and perfect at being masculine. So now he’s just like attacking the model that everyone knows best. But in time I was like, no, totally people, absolute men and women absolutely get stuck in that, um, you know, rigid, non-dynamic. Like, oh, if I’m doing polarity right and I’m a woman, then like, I’m always soft and always loving and I’m, you know, I’m lived love and everything is a blessing. And you can

Demetra (00:05:20):

Tell by the way that they talk. Cause they’re so,

Jordan (00:05:22):

Like, oh, and I it’s all breathy and samey. Yeah, <laugh>. Yeah. And it’s like, wow, I can’t feel you at all. And like, you know, I’m not allowed anger and like yeah, just like half of the emotional spectrum is not for me. And then men are like, yes, I am the mountain and I am grounded and I never blink. And I take deep breaths whenever my woman says anything that’s challenging. And well, I guess she wouldn’t be challenging if she’s only loving and light. But yeah, it’s really like this kink of displacement of like, all inhabit this part of the spectrum. You inhabit that part of the spectrum. Neither one of us gets to move or be fluid or be a total human. And it just is like, it really is like a kink. Like it’s, yeah. Like it, there’s so much reminiscent overlap of my BDSM years of like Got it. So when sexuality or when polarity seeps into the identity, this is what it looks like. It’s rigid and silly and doesn’t work in the real world.

Demetra (00:06:28):

Yeah. Okay. So there are so many things to go into on this topic. Yeah. Um, but I kind of wanna just go on a little side tangent about pickup.

Jordan (00:06:37):

Go for it. Like, I could see your smile.

Demetra (00:06:39):

I like, not me. Like, I just wanna ask you about pickup. Sure. I just think that for people Yeah. Because I know I didn’t ever hear of pickup until I met you.

Jordan (00:06:49):

Really?

Demetra (00:06:50):

Yeah.

Jordan (00:06:50):

Oh, wow. That’s crazy.

Demetra (00:06:52):

So like, I know it was

Jordan (00:06:53):

Big. It is of your underworld. Like it’s Yeah. I, I know. So, so many of my currently 30 to 55 year old male entrepreneur friends, like their way, also their way into self development was pickup. Like, they’re like, oh, I heard about this book The game, there were any things that I could do that I realized, oh, I did this thing and something in my life actually did improve. And then because of that, then I got into, you know, non pick up more holistic self-development. Like it’s, it really was a gateway drug for a lot of men, you know, approximately around my generation.

Demetra (00:07:31):

So for women who don’t really know, because I would imagine that a lot of women have never heard of pickup. Um, okay. And I like, can you summarize, and I guess in my view, pickup seems to be this, I don’t know if it’s a list, but like a way of acting so that you get women to either fuck you or like you or date you or something. Is that an accurate summary?

Jordan (00:08:02):

I mean, I’d say there’s, so like any, you know, subculture, there’s gonna be a thousand different iterations of it. Um, the early marketed to young men, you know, marketing Promise definitely is like, had success with women in dating. Like that’s the one line synopsis is like, if you have felt less, you know, control or influence over dating or relationships than you’ve wanted, here’s a way to, you know, if you’re like a four on the spectrum of 10, like you can do some things that make you a seven, make you an eight. Like you can ascend the latter. Um, and just like, you know, this was varying literature. Like, like, oh, if, if you ever, if a woman ever finds out that you’re into pickup or into cell development, they think it’s weird. Just be like, well, everyone has their different things that they lead with.

(00:08:59):

Like, you might have beauty magazines, you might have a YouTuber, you might have an older sister that you’ve learned makeup tips from, like, you, you do things that are false and are, you know, arbitrary or put on or increase your perceived desirability so that, you know, men working on their social skills, men working on their assertiveness, men working on their sense of humor, on their body language, on their communication skills. Like if our sexual ornamentation is more about our minds and how we can interact and how you perceive us socially, and we can influence that, like you’ve been influencing your external factors, for example, you know, one pillar, um, why wouldn’t we do so? But

Demetra (00:09:42):

It was, doesn’t doesn’t that make it sound a little more wholesome than it is?

Jordan (00:09:47):

That’s what I’m saying. It depends on the, the iteration on the pillar. Like yeah, there’s, there’s like the, there’s the seduction side, which was absolutely guys exclusively going to nightclubs to pick up and fuck and get as many new lays or kills or whatever the verbiage was, depending on the, you know, the decade. Um, yeah. Like the worst of it is men who felt powerless with women wanting to get laid to feel like, I’m one up on you now I’m winning, I’m in choice, I’m in control. I think that, well, maybe there’s darker iterations than that. Like that that’s, that’s the darkest, most known version.

Demetra (00:10:28):

And that includes things like nagging.

Jordan (00:10:30):

Totally. Yep. Nagging was in the book the game and Yeah, nagging for the uninitiated was basically, um, if a guy who’s like a bit of a loser or a bit, you know, lower perceived status is talking to a woman who’s like clearly more attractive than him and is like several notches up on the social hierarchy. If he says a thing that is ideally, you know, subtle and or passive aggressive or under the radar enough that it can’t be called out, but is like a subtle dig at the target at the person he’s talking to Target, um, to Yeah. Basically to show like, uh, I’m not afraid of you, is like the sub subtext, but Yeah.

Demetra (00:11:16):

So he might say something like,

Jordan (00:11:18):

Um, I really like your shoes. They look really comfortable. Or like, oh, I like your nails. Are those real? Like, things like that. Ah. Like, so it’s not like, Hey, you’re ugly and dumb. Like, it, it can’t be overt enough that like you get punched in the face or kicked out of the nightclub or wherever you’re Yeah.

Demetra (00:11:34):

It’s just like a really subtle

Jordan (00:11:36):

Dig. Is he being me? Yeah. But it, but the like, the intentional subtext is like, I’m not just immediately impressed by you because of your beauty. You know, beauty is common in my world, even if it very isn’t. When you act from that place of perceived higher status, some of it does rub off on you if you’re at all congruent. You know, if you’re like dressed terribly and you know, stuttering endlessly and like there’s no, I don’t feel you in these words. That doesn’t go anywhere, but that’s why you work on yourself holistically. Why do language vocal tonality, like it’s a whole,

Demetra (00:12:11):

So what drew you to it, the control aspect? Like were, because did you have years of being more like dark and manipulative with it?

Jordan (00:12:22):

Yes.

Demetra (00:12:23):

Yeah,

Jordan (00:12:23):

For sure. And I mean,

Demetra (00:12:25):

And was that just a control?

Jordan (00:12:27):

I mean my, yeah, my, my story’s very out there when I was 19, 20, I dated a woman for a year who I was head over heels in love with, thought I was gonna marry her, and then she turned on a dime, broke up with me in a really vicious manner. And it hurt so bad that I was like, I literally had this an actual moment thought of like, if that’s how much pain I can experience from letting myself be this open, I’m never gonna let anyone have that much control over me ever again. Hmm. And so I shot off my heart for the next six years, seven years. Um, and so in the first half of that six year patch, that was a, a beacon of hope of like, okay, here’s how I can be as, you know, charming and still in the mix and, you know, sewing my wild oats while Yeah.

(00:13:21):

Having more of a sense of like, I now have the, you know, the tools, the toolbox to like yeah. To get a girlfriend whenever I want and to never have to give my heart. So it was, and, and I do, yeah. It’s, you know, a subtle crossover, but I see some of that in polarity, like in hot in the polarity world in having this mechanism, this act, this facade. You, you know, you both get to play into like the whole, it’s, it’s a lot of smoke and mirrors Yeah. To be like, well as long as I’m playing this role, my heart isn’t really on the line because we’re both just like playing pretend. And so from that place, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a, an emotionally safe place to be. Like, why didn’t really give all of myself to it because, you know, this x, y, and Z traits or emotions weren’t really in the mix. So I get to, you know, stay superficial. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the ego always wants that. Mm-hmm.

Demetra (00:14:29):

<affirmative>, one more pickup question.

Jordan (00:14:30):

Go for it. You can ask me five more. It’s fine.

Demetra (00:14:32):

<laugh>. Okay. I, well, I’m just like, okay, well you should talk about polarity,

Jordan (00:14:36):

But it’s a pivot, but it’s fine. It’s

Demetra (00:14:38):

Interesting. But <laugh> pickup is, um, are there some aspects of pickup that you feel like you still use?

Jordan (00:14:47):

Hmm. Um, I wouldn’t say that I use consciously. There’s no like, oh, like these lines are still in my mind that I use regularly, but, um, yeah, I’m sure some of it bled into me in terms of like, I feel like I’m probably like, we would train eye contact. It’s like I’m probably, I’m probably better at eye contact when meeting new people. Mm. Um, or speaking loudly in, you know, conversationally crowded venues. Like certain, certain things bled into my way of socializing in general.

Demetra (00:15:19):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like it made you better at socializing.

Jordan (00:15:21):

Totally. Yeah. A hundred percent. There’s, yeah, I mean, I feel like with any, you know, season set of teachings, whatever, like, yeah. I, I real, I’ve always believed in transcend and integrate, so it’s like you go through the thing, 90 plus percent of it falls away, some of it sticks to you and you carry it onwards and it’s used for good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so Totally. I mean, and so like a really high percentage of my, we’ve said students back then, but clients, um, you know, there were a lot of computer programmers and people that, you know, this is 15 years ago, they knew that they were on the spectrum. We had people like, oh, like I have Asperger’s. So like, we’d be doing eye contact drills and they’d be like, am I supposed to be feeling something? And like, I think that also introduced me to, you know, a piece of that aspect of myself, of like, oh, I wonder why I’m so drawn to studying social skills. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so

Demetra (00:16:19):

Because of you partially being on the spectrum,

Jordan (00:16:21):

Having overlap with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, it totally has helped me, um, socialize like a, you know, more difficult person. So Yeah. And, and I drilled those things for years. So how, how and when I speak, um, eye contact.

Demetra (00:16:42):

Well when you’re saying like, we drilled eye contact Yes. That was in your first jo, like in social fluency, I imagine, right? Yeah. But was that a pickup thing?

Jordan (00:16:51):

It was a totally pickup thing.

Demetra (00:16:53):

Oh yeah. I guess, I guess I just imagined it as like, oh yeah, you taught guys social skills, but I didn’t realize you were like teaching them pick up.

Jordan (00:17:02):

It was a much lighter version. It was, you know, late stage pickup. Like the game had had

Demetra (00:17:09):

This was Jordan’s kind of like first relationship

Jordan (00:17:11):

Yeah. Job. So I’ve been doing, I say I’ve been doing relationship coaching for 15 years. The first five years were more dating coaching, and it was that, yeah. It was like we would, we were teaching social skills and still under the context of um, like being able to, if you saw someone you found attractive in the daytime walking down the sidewalk, like would you have the ability to say hello in a way that would be warm and accepted, have an entire conversation and get their phone number? It wasn’t the sole focus, but that was definitely the context with which we taught these things.

Demetra (00:17:47):

So I guess there were always both sides of it. Like there would be some guys who were using it to like genuinely just get better at interacting with people.

Jordan (00:17:56):

Women, mainly that than women. 90% that

Demetra (00:17:58):

Oh, okay. Yeah. And then like 10 percent-ish you would say, we’re men who were just like, how can I manipulate women to fuck them?

Jordan (00:18:06):

No, we didn’t have any of those. So

Demetra (00:18:08):

Not you in your group, I just mean like pick up

Jordan (00:18:10):

Oh, like the world over. Yeah. That’d be harder to say. I feel, uh, I mean that, I mean, that’s really just like a question of worldview. Like what percentage of people do you think are like, primarily operating from a dark place of pain? Um, you know, 60, 40, 80 20. Who knows?

Demetra (00:18:31):

Well, is the book the game? Is it like, is it dark in nature

Jordan (00:18:39):

Again? Depends completely on the person, the worldview, the person who’s reading it. Um, it definitely didn’t age well. I know that they’re content, you know, they’re contests in it that like, post Me Too movement, you’d read now and be like, oh man, that’s rough. Um, but is it the darkest source material in the world? Not even close. Right. So, I mean, it, it’s an, it’s an engaging read. Um, if someone,

Demetra (00:19:06):

Yeah, I kind of wanna read it.

Jordan (00:19:07):

<laugh>. I mean, yeah, I, if you knew that, if you went into it being like, this was written, I don’t know, year 2000, I don’t know what year it would’ve been, um, 20 plus years ago. And like you went into it with that context and we’re just reading it. Like, here’s a book about a guy’s experience, which it was cuz he’s like, uh, ghost writer slash like music journalists who just like goes and like, I think the subtitles is like penetrating the underground world of world famous pickup artists or something like that. But he does just like, get swept up into the thing with like, while studying other people, but then becomes one of them. And it’s, you know, it’s a true story and it’s, it’s a good read. But yeah. Do all the techniques stand the test of time? No, definitely not.

Demetra (00:19:58):

Okay. But what I, I used to say to Jordan when we first started dating and he would tell me about this, I was like, I want you to try to pick me up in a bar in a bar. Yeah. And we never did it, but I still think it would be fun.

Jordan (00:20:12):

It would be fun. It, yeah, I know, like my hesitation is, it feels like there’s, yeah, there’s some aspect of like, I think I swung the pendulum so hard into it for a number of years that I feel like I retired that aspect. Not completely. Like there, there are moments you’ve, you’ve seen moments or there have been hints of it over the last <laugh> four years of us dating. Um, but yeah, it, it definitely feels like, uh, right. So Mike Tyson probably, I think one of the most well-known boxers in the history of humanity, um, aside from Muhammad Ali. Like, I remember reading an interview of Mike Tyson within the last three years where he said that he doesn’t work out anymore. Like he doesn’t lift. Mm. Because he said like, it feeds my ego and like when I work out and like my ego, like, basically he was like, I don’t, I’m afraid of feeding my own beast because it gets like dangerous quickly <laugh>.

(00:21:15):

And I, I, I remember reading that and being like, that’s funny. Like even Mike Tyson’s afraid of Mike Tyson. And I like understand a piece of that of like, when you really let your beast have the free reign for a while there Yeah. There was like a, I’ve 90% put that part to bed because I know how manipulative it can be easily. Like you can really, like there are thi there are things that I learned in different books and different programs that like, I wouldn’t even name them because they’re like, wow, that’s really fucked up. Not that I did, but just even, yeah. Like even just knowing that those things exist, it’s like yeah. You could really mess with someone’s worldview rapidly. Yeah. So there’s a

Demetra (00:22:05):

Whole, this is a part of me that is like, like part of me is so intrigued Yeah. By it. And I think I’m partially intrigued because I’m like, I think part of me is like, I’m not, I wouldn’t be manipulatable, but I totally would be. But

Jordan (00:22:20):

That’s what everyone thinks

Demetra (00:22:21):

I know. Well that’s the same

Jordan (00:22:22):

Thing. It’s the exact same thing as people being like, like, oh, and you’re talking to a salesperson, like, oh, like, oh, like I, no one could ever sell me on this. Like, yeah, that was such a thing and pick up. It’s like even if you told women you’re into pickup and they like put up their bit shield was one of the terminology. It’s like, it’s like no. Like there’s still Yeah. Every, it still works. Everyone wants to think like, I’m above being sold. You know, marketing doesn’t influence me. Advertising doesn’t get to me. It’s like, oh yeah, you’re not a person because guess what it does. Yeah. And so Sure. Can some people be really good at like being on guard and whatever and you know, be a bit more resistant. Sure. And if you’re in the room with like the three top salespeople in the world, you don’t think you’re influenceable in the slightest. That’s just delusion. No,

Demetra (00:23:12):

I would’ve thought that. And, and then yeah. I’ve realized lately that my, my, um, my perception that I am not manipulatable makes me like extra manipulatable. Mm-hmm.

Jordan (00:23:25):

<affirmative>. And I didn’t say that last thing because I consider myself one of the top three pickup artists in the world. <laugh>, I just said on the Yeah, yeah. You know, sales persuasion bent, it’s like,

Demetra (00:23:35):

Yeah,

Jordan (00:23:35):

I got it. People are people.

Demetra (00:23:37):

Yeah. Okay. So with Polarity, yeah.

Jordan (00:23:42):

<laugh> back to that

Demetra (00:23:43):

<laugh>. But I think, I mean they’re, they are so related. I just think I was just like curious about pickup.

Jordan (00:23:50):

Yeah. They’re both ways of being that

Demetra (00:23:51):

Maybe I’ll read the game and then I’ll do another episode and I’ll dissect it. That would be funny. Oh

Jordan (00:23:56):

Man. That would be, I would love to hear your thoughts on that talk. That’s crazy.

Demetra (00:24:00):

Um, so polarity, uh, so what, like, when you would say David DTA was your kind of introduction. Definitely. And that came before pickup or no? Like do you think he was influenced by pickup?

Jordan (00:24:15):

No, no, no, no. David, David

Demetra (00:24:17):

Dta. He was way

Jordan (00:24:18):

Before. Way before.

Demetra (00:24:19):

Okay. And then pick came after. But most people or a lot of men you’re saying find David, Dan, like polarity, like pickups their first intro into that kind of,

Jordan (00:24:31):

For a lot of people within the last 30 years. Yeah. It was a, a big ground

Demetra (00:24:36):

Storm. Does pickups say that men are like this and women are like this? Or is it just like people are manipulatable like this?

Jordan (00:24:44):

Um, much more The latter. Yeah. It, it, it, there’s less, um, women are this way, so exploit it in this way, but it is very real world about like, here’s the current, um, socialized roles. Like here’s the real temperature check of how men operate and how women operate because of how we’ve been socialized, because of the culture. And so knowing this, here’s what to do around this strategy now. Um, so yeah, it’s less like women are always this way for sure and more, here’s the current climate, here’s how to act appropriately.

Demetra (00:25:23):

So when you found polarity, did you find it then from a place of like having a more like whole or heart? Or did you, were you still kind of like manipulating with polarity I guess?

Jordan (00:25:40):

Good question. Um, I think it was, so I really started to like discover and lean into and study teachers that were more polarity ish, um, after having been in pickup for several years and beginning to tire of it. So it was definitely a transition of like, okay, you know, I’m starting to like, like the superficiality of that is wearing on me. It’s no longer that as interesting. It was my full-time job. So like, you know, I’d embodied that the pickup way, the social skills way enough to be like I was teaching it full-time, but it was less of an edge or interesting to me. And so yeah, really getting into, you know, two main teachers in particular, their work at that time, it was like, okay, I don’t know if this is my final destination, but this, this feels like progress. This feels like it’s a bit more.

(00:26:32):

Right. Okay. This just, yeah. It, it was a, a deeper step in the funnel that appealed to me and I think for good cause. So yeah, it definitely didn’t feel like, well here’s like the next edge to get on women. It definitely was more like, this is about being grounded and more in my heart and, you know, doing eye gazing. So instead of like training eye contact Yeah. To appear confident in the bar or on the street for day game. It’s like, here’s how to really, you know, I gaze with a woman in a way that allows her to see you and connect with you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it definitely felt more like yeah. Getting closer and deeper to bringing more of the emotional spectrum into the equation. Mm-hmm.

Demetra (00:27:16):

<affirmative> and you had already had some spiritual like inclinations, like you were Yep. Yeah. You for sure.

Jordan (00:27:22):

Yeah. In an earlier years I’d suppressed them. And around that phase I was like, yeah, I’m tiring of the old way and within the next two years my heart’s gonna really start to crack open. So yeah, it was definitely like just the next step. Mm-hmm.

Demetra (00:27:37):

<affirmative>. And I also think you could say like a lot of your B D S M was polarity esque, like it was

Jordan (00:27:45):

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Demetra (00:27:47):

That’s the, and a lot of polarity, the polarity world is very focused on like kink and like, you know, tying women up and stuff like that.

Jordan (00:27:56):

Tying whoever up Yeah. The one Yeah. To like, to the fastest way to polarize is Yeah. To like have a up, like, you know, you like press them against the wall and make out with them or Yeah. Tie them up, blindfold, whatever. Like if one is more the directive energy and the other one’s the more receptive, you know, passive Yes. Energy, then that’s a way to do that. Which again, just quickly becomes its own set of hacks and tricks. Yeah. That as with any tool system dynamic, you can use it for good, you can use it to stay hidden.

Demetra (00:28:36):

Yeah. So I feel like, I mean, I don’t even know exactly when I found Polarity. I guess my first intro would’ve been sort of Allison Armstrong’s work, like the Queen’s code I read and I read that and that was a huge game changer for me actually at the time, Al Um, because I read this book, I was, must have been 24, 23, 24. And I hated men. Like I just, I What were you gonna say

Jordan (00:29:10):

Something? Didn’t you hear about that book from a friend or

Demetra (00:29:13):

From Yeah, yeah. My friend read it and I would never have read it if my friend hadn’t read it. My best friend read it and she was like, she loved it. Yeah. She was like, I read this book and now I love men. She was like, now I like am meeting all these men that are just like so nice to me. And I respect, I feel like I respect men so much and it just like has changed my whole relationship with an experience of men. And I was like, <laugh>, I was like, I was annoyed. I was like, no. I was like, there are, but on. I was like, I could count the amount of men that I respect on one ha like less than one hand. Like there’s maybe one man that I really respect in my whole life that I’ve ever met mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I was very

Jordan (00:29:58):

Feminist. It’s, and it’s good to know whenever you distrust half the global population, there’s nothing to look at there, <laugh>. That’s just, that’s totally fine. You can ride that one into the grave.

Demetra (00:30:07):

<laugh>. I was super like in a big feminist phase, I was just like, you know, men are not to be trusted and I felt better than them. And I read this book and I hated reading. Like it was, it was challenging to get through. And I would be curious actually to go back. I haven’t read it since, but I would be curious to like read it again now and see what I think having had so much experience, more experience than I had then. But I remember the feeling for me was like, I didn’t want to like it and I didn’t want to agree, but so many of her examples were just so true in my life that I was like, oh, like I could start to see how I was contributing to the way that men interacted with me. Yep. And that was massive because it was simple things too.

(00:31:05):

Like just like, I don’t know if I could remember a ton of them that I can remember, um, like doing things like if a man says, can I help you carry that to your car? I used to, I would get offended. Like I would just be like, I’m a strong woman and I can handle it myself. <laugh>. Yep. And in this book she was talking a lot about like letting men be men and emasculating men and how we subtly emasculate men all the time. And I started to notice where in all my conversations with men, I would subtly kind of wanna prove this point of I’m better than you and don’t you know that like everything you can do I can do better. Yeah. And that was a lot of the threads running my life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my relationships. Um, and I’d only had one partner at that time, like one boyfriend who I had just broken up with and our relationship had been very, like I was in control. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was in charge. And um, so I found that book and e just a lot of the things she said about the way that I think still ring very true. And we can get more into this later about like mm-hmm. <affirmative> the parts that feel accurate still. Um, but some of the stuff she just said, I just remembered loving. Like I read her book and then I think I listened to a maybe four hour talk she did or something like that. It was like

Jordan (00:32:36):

Understanding men or understanding women,

Demetra (00:32:38):

I think think it was understanding women actually. Yep. And that’s a good one. Yeah. And it was a really long talk and she just talked about the way women communicate versus the way men communicate and how different they are. And, um, a big thing for me actually that I absolutely still do that changed my interactions with men was just pausing when listening mm-hmm. <affirmative> to men talk. Like she would say, wait 30, like when you think he’s done speaking, wait 30 seconds before you say anything mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I started doing it and I started being like, oh, like if I just chill a moment, he will continue to speak mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And um, so I had found that. And then I guess, I guess maybe it wasn’t until my, my coaching training that I, I read the way of the superior man cuz I was gonna major. Like I was specializing in men’s sexuality. How

Jordan (00:33:41):

About that?

Demetra (00:33:43):

Well that even that was a big thing for me because even though I had healthier relationships with men from reading the book and starting to experiment with the ways that I showed up mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it wasn’t actually for me until I started coaching some men until I thought like, maybe I’ll coach men. And then I did some coaching sessions with men and I got to hear their

Jordan (00:34:09):

Yep. Their lives.

Demetra (00:34:11):

Yeah. Like their perspectives of their relationships with women and what was going on with them and what they needed help with and like their, their relationship to their sex life. And I was like, oh. I was like, men are really hurting

Jordan (00:34:24):

And they’re people.

Demetra (00:34:25):

Yeah. <laugh>, it was very, and I was like, oh wow. And that was really huge for me. Um, but I read, I read, uh, David Data’s work then too, and then I did get very hooked into, like, if you go back into my writing, there was earlier writing than I did about like submission and like surrendering to men. And I did a few articles I wrote on p polarity when I was getting super into that dynamic mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that’s sort of where we began our relationship

Jordan (00:35:00):

Yeah. As we were both like completing the detox of that.

Demetra (00:35:04):

Well, I think you were, you were on your way out. I was still a bit,

Jordan (00:35:09):

Yeah. I’d been out for a while and there was still some residue in me and yeah, it was definitely more real time for you. And yeah, we’ve talked before about how that showed up at our sex life and in different ways that we did communicate in the first year of dating before we were engaged or married and yeah. I mean, again, there’s value in all experience and it was a thing for a bit and it was also just, yeah, there was like, there’s so much more depth available when you have the full spectrum experience of being two full total people with each other. And, um, you know, like in in family systems work, they always say that like a healthy family unit is like a mobile above a baby’s crib. It like, all the pieces are like moving and shifting in response to each other and it’s dynamic and the family system becomes, you know, toxic, unhealthy when it’s rigid when these things have to, like you have to play that role forever.

(00:36:13):

And I play this role and nobody move mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I feel like that’s what polarity can be when it’s, you know, misused or overly identified in is, you know, you stay the, the grounded perfect unmoving mountain and I’ll be the, the dancing whimsical fairy queen and like, here’s what we both do. You’re the aliveness and I’m the consistency and there’s no room for like full humans mm-hmm. <affirmative> on either side of the fence. We’re both playing a rigid role and any rigid role in any relationship or set of relationships, you know, will inevitably lead to pain, resentment, chaos, et cetera.

Demetra (00:36:56):

Well, you know, an aspect of this I’d like to touch on is how I think a big polarity thing is, uh, said to men, like, don’t show your tears to your woman. Like, don’t bring your stuff to your woman.

Jordan (00:37:12):

Don’t process with your women, with, with your woman process, with your men friends only. Yeah. That’s, I mean, that’s not even just polarity world. Like that’s a major teaching and speaking of men from Mars, women are from Venus in John Gray’s teachings. He Yeah. There’s like iterations of it. Some people in that generation, like public teachers of that generation say never bring your process to women. Others that are like a couple years newer might say like, only ever bring your problems to a woman like once per quarter. Like almost never. But yeah, that’s like, there’s very, that, you know, what I perceive as more boomer generation relationship coach types that we’re still detoxing the like stoic unfeeling, um, always be in controlled, never, you know, let him see you sweat never fall off your horse kind of mentality. But like,

Demetra (00:38:03):

And let’s talk about, I mean, like there’s a reason that’s appealing, right? Like the reason that I, the reason that that is appealing to me is because then it’s like I can kind of be a mess mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just like be all over the place and I just get to be feminine. Yep. And you or whoever, like the masculine would have to be always stoic and like solid and on.

Jordan (00:38:36):

I’m grounded for the both of us. Yeah.

Demetra (00:38:39):

Yeah. And so it’s like I don’t have to do anything. Yeah. And then I don’t even have to like help you. Like, I don’t have to take any responsibility. I don’t have to use any of my energy to deal with you at all or any of your stuff.

Jordan (00:38:57):

You don’t, you don’t have to hold yourself when you witness a man crying and go, oh, I don’t know what happens here. I don’t have the inner ability to hold myself. So if you, the stable rock has shifted 1%, then holy shit, the whole thing goes to crap. And I don’t know what to do with myself. Like there, there’s very, there’s psychologically lazy, um, unintegrated compelling reasons on both side of the equation for why this dynamic works. Yeah. Or is compelling not works. Like the, the male equivalent, just the easy superficial way into this could be if my woman is, you know, like this is even a thing in the Bible to like not withhold from your husband if your open soft woman is always ready for sex. Because hey, if you’re not open for sex and you’re not, you know, 24 7, uh, gaping, wet, willing, receptive pussy, then you’re doing it wrong.

(00:39:53):

And like if I get, if I’m supposed to feel no emotions other than you know, perfect and solid and unfeeling, stoic man, then at least I get to displace my feeling of aliveness through your body. But like, holy shit, does that not hold up in the real world? It just Yeah, it is. Both people are playing the suppression game and they each get enough, you know, junk food nutrients through each other that we both get to not grow mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it’s, that’s where the mask is just suffocating to anyone who does it for more than a couple of years.

Demetra (00:40:30):

Yeah. Yeah. There are so much in that. Um, I think because I’ve heard women say that too, like when women teach polarity, it’s like, you should always be open and you should always be ready for sex. You should always be. And it’s like, it is just like a passing down of the same what I guess you say is in the Bible. Yeah.

Jordan (00:40:54):

I’ve never heard that. It’s, it’s like against God to withhold from your husband. Yeah. But like they say that that means like withholding sex, but meanwhile withhold your emotional reality all you want. Yeah. Like that part doesn’t matter, but just like be an available body.

Demetra (00:41:09):

Yeah. And I think that women can easily justify it to themselves because it’s easy to kind of be like, to override your body and pretend that you’re not. And I think it’s a lot harder and I think in all polarity like it, it’s harder to navigate an actual long-term loving relationship between two whole people, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> than it is to both be like playing in these roles that we like, think that we’re supposed to be playing in. Um, but I know for me, like I remember you, you interviewed me before, we were dated dating a while ago for, you wrote an article about men crying mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you were like, can you, uh, share like your thoughts on men crying? And I was like, well actually, like I used to be disgusted by men crying. Yeah. And I think it would be easy for a woman who sees her partner cry or sees men cry and to be like, oh, that makes me uncomfortable, or that’s disgusting. And the reason for that must be because I’m feminine and he’s masculine and he’s not supposed to Right. Show up that way.

Jordan (00:42:25):

Just such a, it’s an easy way to bypass

Demetra (00:42:28):

Yeah. Versus actually looking at like, what is this bringing up in me and why do I have this sort of belief in this way of being and response? Um, yeah. Something that never really sat right with me was, I just have heard people say too, like, like I, I think so much, there’s so much intimacy, I guess so much like tenderness I get to experience in our relationship by us sort of switching back and forth. And for me, getting to see your inner child, getting to see you cry occasionally holding your inner child. Like there are so many teachers who would be like, oh, that is so terrible for your sex life. Or it’s like, so like, you’re never gonna be turned on. Like, it’s just, just a huge turn off.

Jordan (00:43:27):

Yeah. It’s so anti the polarity narrative.

Demetra (00:43:31):

Yeah. And I think that it misses just the beauty of being with someone in their wholeness. Like, I do get to experience you when you’re very solid and centered and you know, more intense. And I also get to be with you and love you in like other aspects of you, like in your feminine aspects if you will, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so yeah. I think that piece for sure.

Jordan (00:44:04):

Yeah. And it’s just, it’s being in a relationship with a whole person Yeah. Which like, of course there would be more juice and aliveness and, you know, dynamic range to experience. Like it’s Yeah. Like a relationship between two people versus a hundred, a relationship between a hundred people and two people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, yeah. It would be a more dynamic dance.

Demetra (00:44:26):

And we used to say this too, when we were more into polarity, um, like with the communication and I would talk about like feminine communication and how to communicate in a feminine way. And it was very indirect and very passive. Yeah. Like, oh, I’m cold. I’m so cold,

Jordan (00:44:47):

I will save the day. Here’s my jacket <laugh> versus the direct responsible adult approach of like, actually, you know what, maybe the more clear we are in our communication, the more flow there is for everyone.

Demetra (00:45:01):

Yeah. And I, I have found such a, and again, like that’s an easier thing to kind of play into for women because it goes along with the societal conditioning that’s been really present for a long time of you’re not supposed to be direct. Yeah. Like, you’re not supposed to

Jordan (00:45:19):

Seek, like, like a direct ask is like, oh, but isn’t that nagging? Is that nagging if I stayed in need or a desire? It’s like, no,

Demetra (00:45:28):

Well, it can be nagging if you <laugh> like say it in the nagging sort of way, or there’s resentment in there, but

Jordan (00:45:34):

There’s sideways anger tacked onto it. Sure. But

Demetra (00:45:36):

If it’s just like, Hey, Jordan, can I have your coat? Or like, Hey, can I, whatever, like, can you do this? Can you do dishes? Do the dishes? Yeah. Like it’s not depolarizing, it’s just it’s actual relationship. Yeah.

Jordan (00:45:51):

I feel life.

Demetra (00:45:53):

Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean I guess it, there’s like, what aspects of it do resonate and do work? Like what are the differences between men and women and how does that show up in relationship?

Jordan (00:46:17):

I mean, yeah. I think there’s ultimately a lot of value in just like seeing every like, like a culture of one, a gender of one a, you know, a masculine or feminine balance of one. Just like, it’ll always come down to the individual and there are like, you know, there’s statistical trends of like, you know, the data shows that yes, with certain personality traits, um, there are more heavily weighted, um, you know, spots on the continuum for men or for women. And is there gonna be a range in each gender that shows up differently in each person, in each relationship? Yes. And I think there’s also still value in seeing, like when I look at you and I’m like, here’s a human being, you know, it’s like here’s a human being or a mammal, a human being, a woman, a demetra, uh, this childhood, these preferences.

(00:47:18):

Like there’s, you know, there’s layers to the thing to the person. And so in that it’s like, yeah, see what this current entity is and how it’s been influenced by its upbringing, by the culture, by the narratives. Because yeah, like that’s, so I’ve spent millions of dollars on ads for my, you know, main programs, right. Main men’s program, I mean women’s program. And for my main women’s program, which, you know, the, the core central theme of it is like, here’s how’d understand men better so you can have better relationships with them. Um, one of the most common comments that I get on these ads is women being like this, you know, this is like, this is enabling and stupid and like, you know, just, you know, men should be doing their own work and why is it up to us to like calibrate to them at all?

(00:48:17):

Blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, first of all, I mean the program is based off of my many years of work with men. So yes, men are doing their work in men’s groups and masterminds and therapy chairs more than they ever have in any other time in human history. So like, don’t worry about that part. And it’s that piece of like, yeah, like to really dig your heels in and be like, I’m not gonna meet people where they’re at. Why are, you know, why are people influenced by culture? Why are people influenced by a socialization? Um, like she’s like, okay, if this is where the status quo is, if this is where people are like, is, are we really so hard pressed to like be compassionate and understand, hey, you know what, the average woman above the age of 10 in western society has probably been receiving millions of messages about how her looks are a lot of her value, and here’s how to maybe counteract some of that potentially damaging messaging.

(00:49:19):

Mm-hmm. Like, why not meet people where they’re at and extend to be loving? Yes. There’s a lot of men that are emotionally repressed. There’s also a lot of women that are emotionally repressed in different, you know, parts of the emotional spectrum. Knowing these things, and this is kind of tying back to like the social skills training. It’s like, if this is where we are and we’re off target, what work can we do to get towards the more integrated center mm-hmm. <affirmative> in all of our work mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, women as sex objects, men as success objects, if, you know, if women are more, you know, looks or superficial things valued and men are more like you’re a human doing and like you’re just a walking wallet and go and provide and shut up and stop feeling and get to work and be a millionaire.

(00:50:08):

And that’s your value in this lifetime. Like knowing where people are likely to have been influenced in a certain direction. Like you can love them better knowing the context that they’ve been conditioned within. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so I know that I didn’t answer any, how are men and women statically different? Um, but yeah, I mean for just like bullet point things, um, across the whole statistical spectrum, women by and large tend to be more interested in people and relationships. Men tend to be more interested in things. Um, obviously there’s outliers. I’m an outlier. I, you know, I’m not an electrical engineer. I care about, I focus on relationships and study relationships more than I do, you know, taking apart and putting back together ham radio sets. So like, you know, everyone’s got their different

Demetra (00:51:08):

Well, I, I think I just mean like with, I do think though that like, I’m not trying to take the perspective of oh actually everyone’s just the same. Yeah. And like, we’re all just like one gender. Like there is no gender and we’re just like not different. And like our differences don’t matter because there are still aspects like when I was saying when it comes to communication and you know, is this innate in men or is it socialized? I don’t know, but I know that it works. Yeah. Like I know that when I communicate with my girlfriends, it’s very different than communicating with men. Yeah. And I communicate differently on purpose. Like I wait for men, I give more space for men to speak. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there are also aspects I think of being a woman for me and being like femininity if you will.

(00:52:03):

Like what is femininity necessarily? I don’t really know. But I think, I think part of the reason that polarity can be so appealing is because there are these aspects that it touches on of being a woman and being a man that are being slowly erased from our culture. Totally. And so I think for women it can feel really freeing. Like I remember for me, remember when I bought all those aprons? Yes. And it was like so healing for me to be like, I wanna buy flowery aprons and like flowery oven myths and I wanna cook for my husbands. And it felt like that was a thing that had been taken away. Like in the whole me being a feminist and very like, super independent and like wanting to be independent woman and do everything myself. There were these things that I felt like I didn’t get to have, like I just looked down on as being less.

(00:53:09):

And even still, I’m like, oh, can I really, like if where we’re kind of headed is me doing some teaching with you and your containers and me like redecorating our house and being a mother and cooking and learning to can and just like, oh, like doing what feels fun and like making things pretty. There is still a part of me that like looks down on that and is just like, well that’s not value. Like, that’s not, you’re not like doing important enough things. And I think that I see a lot of women, I think too, even in the, like the home setting world, I follow a lot of like homestead stuff now. And a lot of those women, like a lot of those people just have overlap with the religious world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that that’s why that there’s such a, I don’t know if it’s like a resurgence or just like a, um, I I just see people gravitating back almost, or just more toward these, like there is a part of me that’s like, wow, it would be really nice if I like knew how to sew and like just like, I don’t know, like, like, I don’t know other things women

Jordan (00:54:37):

Homeschooling our five children.

Demetra (00:54:39):

Yeah. That’s, I really deeply want to homeschool our kids like kids

Jordan (00:54:43):

And they’re having the group cellar with your canned

Demetra (00:54:45):

Goods. Yeah. And these more traditional roles that women played. Like I also think it’s kind of dumb to say that or to, to try to imagine that like those roles weren’t played for a reason. Like when you look at tribal communities and just different where like men and women have a solid role that they play. It’s like, it, it’s not to say that, oh, women are never the warriors cuz of course, you know, women can be, and there were whatever, Sparta or whatever where women were also like women people can do whatever mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I al I think we’re just like the traditional roles of things have value in them too. And so I think that’s something for me is like, I think how it comes into our relationship now is that we’ve both seen the people trying to put on the act of polarity.

(00:55:48):

Yeah. Like and you know, there can be some value in like playing that out just to like see what you feel like. We had a nice time when we did that David data workshop Yep. A couple years, few years ago mm-hmm. <affirmative> together and we just sort of like played with the energies together. That’s fun. Um, and so there’s value in tr trying things out just, just to have experience. But we’ve seen the women, like I remember I couldn’t stand the women in that program because they were all just like, oh, now women were gonna breathe. And it was just like, why can’t you just be caricature in person? Yeah. And um, but I do think that in our relationship, like even this morning we had a, so we sometimes now because we’re doing more work together mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we are having business chats. And for me, like I was saying to Jordan this morning, like, okay, like we’re gonna be in business mode and for me, like I interact a bit differently with you in business mode than I do just like in cuddling on the couch mode lover.

Jordan (00:57:06):

Yeah, totally. Yep.

Demetra (00:57:07):

And so, but I think it’s essential and really beautiful and important to be able to play all of the roles. Yep. And I think that where women have a hard time, I mean all people I’m sure, but like where I see I see women the most and like when I see women where I see them have a hard time is often when they’re like super in these quote unquote masculine qualities is just like all day, every day. Like being the independent woman and just getting stuff done and like career woman intense mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then they feel like they don’t quite know how to shift.

Jordan (00:57:49):

Yeah. It’s the rigidity, it’s any one role will be exhausting. Yeah. Especially when it’s not closer to your, you know, core essence.

Demetra (00:57:59):

Yeah. And so I’ve found a lot of permission in my feminine femininity, feminine qualities, but I don’t, I wouldn’t even say that I necessarily think of it as femininity anymore.

Jordan (00:58:16):

Yeah.

Demetra (00:58:17):

Like I think, and I think there is that distinction between like, I don’t see it as femininity and masculinity, but I also don’t see it as like, oh, everybody’s just all the same thing. I think like I’m a woman and that matters to me

Jordan (00:58:38):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Demetra (00:58:41):

And I feel like there’s been this really beautiful deepening in the way that we can play all things. Like we can be all things for each other.

Jordan (00:58:50):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Demetra (00:58:52):

And I think, I guess you’d call it like you’re masculine, but like there was definitely and still is an aspect of you that really attracted me of the like knowing who you are and like being like that’s what I was missing in my other relationships was this kind of like watery, like I don’t have any real direction.

Jordan (00:59:26):

Yeah.

Demetra (00:59:28):

Um,

Jordan (00:59:30):

It’s hard, hard to fall in love with anyone who doesn’t have any sense of self, like the self-help cliche of in order to be able to say I love you, one must first be able to say, I like you need a person to connect to, to be drawn to in the first place. Yeah. It wasn’t just like, oh, well I see that Jordan is flawlessly unfeeling and stoic because I was writing articles about my emotions and posting photos of myself crying and you know, posting an Instagram story of me shaving my chest. Like there there’re things that which I did once. It was a kind

Demetra (01:00:03):

A, I remember how much I liked that though. I related

Jordan (01:00:06):

To it a lot and what a, what a human unmasculine thing to be, to be posting about. And like that was a, you know, me dancing and like lip syncing. Yeah. You know, things that someone could be like, oh, like that’s like, that’s so feminine and so like expressive and not for the men, but again, yeah. When you really, when you drop the rigidity, when you drop the roles and you realize that so much of that stuff, you know, might make some sense in like short-term dating strategy when it comes to building a multi-decade partnership with someone. Like every aspect of course will come to bear and you’re going to interact with all of the person you’re, you know, seated across from mm-hmm. <affirmative> and so in that dynamic dance Yeah. I, I I don’t even think about the pieces as like masculine or feminine. It’s just like, what’s the truest essence that wants to be happening most of the time.

(01:01:01):

Okay. Follow that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it is more like you have the bandwidth and desire to homeschool our multiple children. Yeah. And like that’s, that’s a you gift. And I have certain, you know, business gifts or work gifts or pieces that I’m more prone to and enjoy and get nutrients from that you would not be as quick to want to take on. Cuz we’re just different people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you know, those things do largely play well with more traditional values. And it makes total sense that, yeah, I mean when you were saying that, it made me think of like, you know, just forever people ate locally cuz they only ever could, and then there was this like pendulum swing of, oh, I can get, you know, tropical fruit from all around the world year round. And in response to that there was like the a hundred mile diet, you know, like the book and the concept came out.

(01:01:57):

I have never heard of that. It’s totally a thing. It’s just like, oh, we should be eating locally more. And if your berries had to travel from another continent, oh maybe that’s not as ideal for Yes. The nutritional value or you know, airplane pollution, whatever. Like all the things, it’s like, to me this feels like that natural, you know, snapback resurgence, reintegration of, okay, so yes, the bra burning, you know, first wave feminism men growing their hair long mythopoetic men’s movement, Woodstock, you know, fir the first original most well-known Woodstock kind of being like, yeah, the rigidity is exhausting, so let’s all like come to the middle a bit more for a while. And now there’s not just from that, but there is a wave of reintegration of yeah, maybe eating, eating locally and you know, embodying things that might seem like more traditional values.

(01:02:56):

Um, when the pendulum swing has been like, you know, gender’s exclusively a construct and there’s no biological difference between men and women and no, you know, discernible, you know, tractable, um, personality trait differences across, you know, a population example of a million people. It’s like, well that’s not true either. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, um, you know, a woman who’s five three and has 40 inch hips like, will not be the world’s fastest sprinter because that body’s not designed for the world’s fastest sprinting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Like there just, there are any differences. And so yes, there’s, there’s a whole range of truth between there’s no discernible difference and there’s only two camps.

Demetra (01:03:44):

I think there is just such value in the exploration of like, I think what’s really popular now is the exploration of like, like, like you don’t have to be your traditional like sext self. Like you don’t have to be like, for me it’s like I can be all these things that women never got to be mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I actually think that there’s almost more value in today’s world in also going back to like, what about the more traditional qualities have been made wrong that like I really do see in myself. Yeah. And maybe I do like to cook and play with pretty things and that’s okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and maybe like you will like to work <laugh>. Yeah, that’s okay. Yeah. Like

Jordan (01:04:50):

There’s a big difference between like Yeah. The, the wave of integration of like, hey, you don’t have to be a mom, you can be a career woman to that overthink it’s welcome into, well you should only be a career woman. Yeah. But like now being a mom is clearly lesser than and don’t do that. Like all the above, you know, like what’s the authentic choice for the person? The point of integration was to make every option available. Mm-hmm.

Demetra (01:05:17):

<affirmative> not to make some wrong. Yep. Yeah, totally. Well I feel like one day we could do a part two, but <laugh>

Jordan (01:05:29):

Apparently after you read the book, the game

Demetra (01:05:32):

Well that,

Jordan (01:05:33):

That’s the

Demetra (01:05:34):

Whole, should we do that

Jordan (01:05:35):

Together? 20 minute tangent? Sure. Maybe

Demetra (01:05:37):

We should do it together.

Jordan (01:05:38):

I really, yeah, I haven’t read it since the first time I gonna order it 20 plus years ago. I don’t know. I’m sure it does not stand well, you know it Yeah. Certain things like in writing it’s like comedy doesn’t age well. Like if you watch like a Yeah. A you know, a comedy that came out 10 years ago and you watch today, you’re like, oh yeah, that’s, that joke wouldn’t apply today. Like it, it, the turnover is quite rapid. I’m sure that book post Me Too does not stand up today.

Demetra (01:06:07):

Okay, well I’m gonna, I’m gonna read it. <laugh>. Okay. Well yeah, hopefully it gives you Oh, some things to think about. I just think that there’s so much talk, like even the most popular like found through your course, I don’t know if you still link to it or, um, but now through Google too, the mo on my website is like how to be more feminine. Right. And I’ve even kind of corrected it, like I’ve put a little note at the top now like hey, this isn’t really how I think about this now. Um, and even the correction is not quite how I think about it now. <laugh> cuz everything’s changing always. Um, but I think that the reason people find that is because like so many of these things have been made wrong. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, like, oh I only wanna wear dresses and skirts. Like, is that okay? Like that’s allowed for me to do mm-hmm <affirmative> and like yeah. I think that’s why it’s so appealing.

Jordan (01:07:11):

These things can also come in like waves and seasons. Like there is also, you know, micro waves or micro microwave, micro season of these things of like I’m in a more integrating this piece kick for a while and then I’m gonna integrate another piece. Like Yeah. Like that’s also Yeah. Just none of the thing of these things have to be static. Remotely.

Demetra (01:07:33):

Yeah.

Jordan (01:07:34):

So

Demetra (01:07:36):

Cool. Well Jordan has a new community. It’s called the Circle.

Jordan (01:07:42):

I do.

Demetra (01:07:43):

And I am a part of it,

Jordan (01:07:46):

A valuable part of it.

Demetra (01:07:47):

<laugh>. Yeah. I don’t really know how it happened cuz I was like, oh I’m like not working anymore Then now it’s like, oh well actually I’m holding all these workshops in Jordan’s space and now we’re like kind of doing it together. He has weekly coaching calls you can get on with him like every single week. The recordings of all of them are in the group so you can join and watch whenever you want. You can join live when you want to. You can direct coaching with him, which is pretty amazing cuz that hasn’t been available ever. Kind of,

Jordan (01:08:21):

Definitely never in this context or regularity.

Demetra (01:08:24):

Yeah. And um, we’ve added all these workshops, so mm-hmm. <affirmative>, he has won. No, I guess this will come out after, but we could still say one that’s already happened. One that’s already happened by the time you’re listening to this are is he’s doing one on identifying healthy partners and I’m holding one February 5th that is about healing your relationship to the masculine. So all the stuff we talked about today of um, the stuff that I had with men, like the way that I hated men, the differences with men and how to love and respect men. Like if, if you have any stuff around that. And I think pretty much all women do. Um, I’m gonna be working with people live in that workshop and then we have just like a ton others, like at least one or two a month, um, in the coming at least like five months. And I think they’ll just continue mm-hmm. <affirmative> so you can join whenever it’s just a monthly membership. So you can also join for a workshop and then if you decide not to stay that’s okay. Um, but it’s just 2 22 a month and it’s monthly. So you can there

Jordan (01:09:45):

Contracts commitment. Yeah. Georgia Great consulting.com/circle

Demetra (01:09:50):

Is, we’ll put it in the show notes, right. So people could just go click it. But yeah, if you wanna find more about that, um, you can go there and yeah, be lots more to come.

Jordan (01:10:02):

Thanks for hanging out

Demetra (01:10:04):

<laugh>. Thanks Jordan for coming on again. It’s fun to do these with you.

Jordan (01:10:09):

Thanks for having me. My pleasure.

Demetra (01:10:11):

Okay. And that’s all for now and I’ll talk to you soon.